the president does not believe that a criticism comes based on the color of his skin. i don't think that -- like i said, the president does not believe it's based on the color of his skin. i don't know whether that's a fine point or not so fine point. as i said sunday, the president does not believe that it's based on the color of his skin. i guess i'm a victim of being consistent. i'm just saying that i think the president does not believe -- i forget exactly how the original question was. the majority of this is based on that. i just don't subscribe to that. >> welcome to "morning joe." this is exciting. i love this town. >> in seattle. >> we are in seattle. at starbucks.

it's just great. we have some people outside holding signs that say sleepless in seattle. i thought they were going to say sleepless in seattle because they're "morning joe" fans. >> this is really exciting. >> this is a great fan. >> another guy said, yeah, you love seattle because you're a closet liberal. where are you from? pensacola. but anyway, this is just a fantastic city. willie loves vegas. i'll take seattle. >> and we love our starbucks first thing in the morning. >> yes, we do. >> we've got to get right to the news. jimmy carter getting a lot of reaction now to his comments that i still can't get over. >> well, i know. you heard -- let's be clear this morning. >> okay. >> because i disagree with a lot of people on the far left, but

the white house does not play the race card. you can say obama supporters play the race card. you can say people on the far left play the race card, and people on the far right certainly have been playing the race card. especially a lot of talk show types. but this white house never goes there. they never take the bait. they never -- they distance themselves from jimmy carter's comments. i will say the most interesting thing i saw yesterday was craig crawford, who obviously is a huge jimmy carter fan. craig crawford wrote that, like me, he thought that joe wilson made the terrible mistake to ascribe it to racism. he's reminded in 1980 that it hurt him as a jimmy carter fan that kennedy forces were accusing jimmy carter of racism. this race card plays to the

lowest common denominator. >> i'm not denying there are issues with race that we have to deal with in our country, but this one just doesn't fit. we need to get to the news. >> first of all, let's introduce -- we have brother buchanan in washington, d.c., and, of course, we're very excited to have the star of "way too early," that runaway reality show. >> huge in seattle. >> willie geist in new york. >> it is huge in seattle. >> and, willie, your lessons with the pitching were very helpful. thank you. >> the reviews were great. i saw the pictures of you guys with your dodgers jerseys on. i heard you both were great out there. i can't wait to see it. >> wait until you see the shocking video. >> it's something. i got some private lessons. >> i can say this. tommy lasorda, a big fan of the show, asked mika if he could give her some lessons. next thing you know, his arms were engulfed.

it was inappropriate in front of 50,000 dodger fans, but it was very helpful. >> it could have been worse. >> now we know why they used to call him old paws back in the minor leagues. >> all right. we had a great time. a full report is coming up. first, a look at some of today's top stories. as we've been talking about, former president jimmy carter is repeating his assertion that much of the recent anger directed at president obama stems from racist attitudes and comes from as the white house tries to distance itself from the comments, which are being blasted by republican leaders. >> i think people that are guilty of that kind of personal attack against obama have been influenced to a major degree by a belief that he should not be president because he happens to be african-american. it's a racist attitude. and my hope is, and my expectation is that in the

future both democratic leaders and republican leaders will take the initiative in condemning that kind of unprecedented attack on the president of the united states. >> with all due respect, it's just plain wrong and, quite frankly, ignorant as to matters of race if he thinks what we heard in that chamber that evening was somehow stoked by or stems from racism. i think it's unnecessary. i think it colors, if you will, this debate on health care in a very unfortunate way. >> yeah, and i've got to say there is a hatred. there's widespread hatred across america for people who wear bow ties. i don't know why he went there. i don't know why he did it. >> can we have him back on the show and talk to him? remember he had the shoulder pads. >> i want it stopped. >> i'm sorry. >> stop. don't be hateful to republicans like that. he was very good, very effective yesterday, and he used the word

"ignorant." >> i can't put my arms around it. i don't understand why the former president would do this. >> what he's doing here -- and we're not going to talk about it much more. he's trying to get into people's minds. i've heard over the past 24 hours that people who throw these tea parties are racist. well, maybe some are. i can tell you the vast majority of people out there just don't want their taxes raised. we've heard the health care rallies were fueled by racism. no, they weren't. some people like their health care, 75% of americans like their health care. >> and there was a very large approval rating when he was brought into office. >> he was at 70%. he's down to 51% according to gallup this morning. that means 20% of the people have become more racist? of course not. congress will continue sizing up health care after the chairman of the senate finance committee unveiled his $856 billion plan to overhaul the system. senator max baucus' proposal

would reduce the deficit by $49 billion over the first decade. baucus is still optimistic he can gain republican support for the plan, it may be democrats who need the most convincing. >> what we're saying to the united states senate, to the gang of six is thanks but no thanks. any health care proposal that does not have the competition and cost containment that can only be achieved via public option will be considered dead on arrival. >> all right. meanwhile, a new gallup poll shows 60% of americans believe the government will not be able to improve coverage without raising taxes or affecting the quality of care. >> let me go to pat buchanan. pat, max baucus' plan came out, and you already have jay rockefeller echoing what we heard lawrence o'donnell saying. a liberal democrat attacking the baucus bill saying it would raise the surtax by 35% and

would crush middle class workers in west virginia and in other states. this baucus bill is getting it from all sides. >> it's getting hit from all sides. olympia snowe was not brought aboard, not a single republican. as you mentioned, joe, you've got rockefeller in west virginia, who said these coal miners who have terrific health care programs through their unions, they're going to be hammered by this, and he can't support it. i think baucus tried to get both sides, and i think he wound up getting neither of them. >> it's looking pretty bad right now, mika, for the baucus plan. >> we'll see. according to this morning's "wall street journal," the obama administration is p droing plans to build a missile defense shield in eastern europe. it indicates new findings that iran's nuclear technology is developing more slowly than anticipated. it will likely be cheered by russian officials who see the missile system as a potential threat. today federal agents are combing through evidence seized

at the colorado home of a man with suspected ties to al qaeda. originally from afghanistan, the man was taken in for questioning, where he provided dna samples and his recent travel history. the search follows a similar raid on several new york city apartments earlier this week. according to reports in connecticut, police expect to make an arrest this morning in the murder of a yale graduate student, who police say was strangled last tuesday. this morning officers are monitoring the movements of 24-year-old raymond clark, named as a person of interest in the case. the body of the victim, annie le, was discovered on her wedding day. and mary travers from the 1960s folk band peter, paul, and mary has died. known for hits like puff the magic dragon and blowin' in the

wind, travers died on wednesday after a long battle with leukemia. she was 72 years old. >> that is -- of course, peter, paul, and mary, "the new york times" talked about how she was exactly what she played on tv. she was from greenwich village. she was at a time when that's really where the entire folk music scene was. there are a lot of sad people this morning. >> absolutely. >> so they started something in folk music that obviously had a great impact. "the times," i think, quoted somebody who said she brought sex appeal to peter, paul, and mary, and peter, paul, and mary brought sex appeal to folk music. >> i love it. that's a quick look at the news. let's get a check now on the weather forecast with bill karins. bill, i can tell you, it's raining in seattle. >> it always rains in seattle.

but not that hard, as they like to say. >> it's not raining out here. >> it did. it was raining on me when i got in here. >> it wasn't raining. people were spitting on you. it never rains in seattle. >> you know what else happened to me? >> what? >> i got stuck in the elevator. >> oh, boy. that's not good. oh, go ahead. >> sorry. were we interrupting? >> no, not at all. i like listening to the little stories. it's good. let's talk about the forecast. we have light shower activities in the city today from baltimore to washington, d.c. nothing that's going to ruin your day, a lot like yesterday. more clouds and sun. temperatures cool from boston all the way down to philadelphia. d.c. today, we'll only call you 70 degrees. travel trouble spots, dallas/fth area, oklahoma city, little rock. you're going to have rain on and off during the day today, possibly some thunderstorms. it shouldn't be horrible. a lot of flooding last night around nashville, who picked up two inches of rain. forecast for today, picture perfect, beautiful. from chicago to minneapolis, denver, kansas city, st. louis.

san francisco, l.a., sacramento looking good. officially i've got seattle down for a mix of sun and clouds and no rain. if it rained this morning, you're saying i lied. >> my hair tells you that it's raining. does my hair lie? >> speaking of seattle, when we drove in last night and got out of the car and looked out over the water, there was an extraordinary sunset. >> beautiful. the mountains and the low clouds. >> and, you know, i got a tear like the indian. i knew i had to get up in an hour and a half to do the show. that was the most difficult decision i've made in some time. you see how my life is. i wanted to go out to dinner in seattle, but i knew i couldn't. >> just couldn't do it. >> isn't it a gorgeous city? >> beautiful. >> amazing city, isn't it? >> we have a big show this morning live from seattle. coming up in just a few minutes, is obama over exposed?

that's the focus of mark leibovich's upcoming article in "the new york times." and moderator of "meet the press," david gregory. he's sitting down with president obama on sunday. and peter schiff predicted the economic meltdown. now he's making another major announcement right here on "morning joe." plus politico's mike allen staying hot on the acorn trail. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks live from seattle. paying $8 a day for lunch can add up fast.

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if you watch the news, have you noticed such a lack of civility in america these days. we've seen it become much more prevalent. you know something, i think we've found a solution. take a look. >> the reforms i'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally. >> are you tired of people

saying what's on their mind? >> beyonce had one of the best videos of all time. >> everybody's got an opinion, and they're all compelled to share it with others. those annoying comments can go away with this. duct tape. just a few inches of this sticky fabric solves it all. it comes in perforated strips. the all-american solution to everything. >> here with us now, politico -- from the politico morning playbook, chief political correspondent mike allen. mike, good to see you this morning. you know, we've been saying that acorn is an obsession of fox news. it's now become your obsession, my friend. every day a a new report. what else can you tell us? >> well, it's on the list. we're starting out with a quiz today. >> okay. >> would you say that since 1994 -- and this is going to be a nice centrist quiz. would you say since 1994 acorn has gotten from the federal government, $5 million, $50 million, $500 million.

nice centrist quiz. >> i know the answer. i believe it's $53 million, if i'm not mistaken. >> willie, good homework. representative darrell issa came up with that figure. that spig ot is turning off. the senate voted not to give any more hud money or transportation money to it. now republicans are going through any committee they're on. the leader john baynard has asked them to see if they're giving any money to acorn and look for ways to pull it off. acorn put out a press release the other day, and they're hiring an auditor. looks like they're going to have quite a bit less to audit. >> mike, why has it taken so long for people to really look into this? i know some republicans have wanted an investigation into acorn for a very long time. they said the powers that be, meaning the leaders of the democratic party, i guess, don't want to investigate. what's going on? >> willie, until now, it's looked ideological.

it looked like republicans were going after it because this was an organization who helped register voters who voted overwhelmingly for barack obama. it turns out just to be a matter of incompetence. it's like any other group that gets money from the federal government. if they're doing things -- if the money is being either ill spent or misspent, the government has a responsibility to crack down on this as nothing else than an incentive for other people who get federal money to know that you can't do this. when you get a couple of film makers, one of them posing as a pimp, who can get advice and shelter from this organization, you can have big trouble from uncle sam. >> mike, joe is in seattle with a question. joe? >> i wanted to ask you, mike. a couple of days ago you had the head of acorn issuing angry statements talking about litigation. yesterday they backed off, and they said, we're shocked too by what's in these tapes. we're going to investigate. do you think that's president

obama's white house picking up the phone and calling him and saying, you've got a problem, and you really need to look into this. >> i don't know the answer to that, but it's going after their purse strings. when it was just a fight in the media, sure, it was easy to say let's sue fox news. let's go after the film makers. now after they're getting a big hit to their budget, and they also get a lot of money from state and local governments, which now are going to be under pressure to cut back on them, they face an existential threat now. in addition to this auditor, they say they're hiring an investigator. they say within 48 hours they're going to have some of these measures in place. >> mike, checking out your playbook here, going to health care, bun of the stealthy players in all this could be the first lady of the united states. tell us about the role michelle obama is going to play here. >> mrs. obama is going to be increasingly visible on this. this has been an issue she's been interested in for a while. she's not going to talk about

the politics or the mechanics of health care reform the way another first lady did. she's going to talk about it in what one adviser calls a soccer mom friendly way. she's going to talk about nutrition, healthy eating choices, exercise, some of the issues she's cared about and has been promoting with the white house garden, the swing set outside. this is a way for one of the white house's biggest assets, michelle obama, who's turned out to be extremely popular in office, has a lot of credibility out in the country. she's able to promote this issue without being sullied by the politics of it. above the storm. >> all right. definitely in good faith for the issue. thank you so much, mike allen. we'll be reading the playbook at politico.com. to help combat the spread of the swine flu, h1n1, health officials are going viral, if you'll pardon the pun. to keep the public informed about how and where the flu is spreading, health officials are turning like never before to social media tools.

nbc's chief science correspondent robert bizzell explains. >> reporter: when pandemic flu viruses struck the last two times, in 1957 and 1968. >> the three astronauts about to leave for the moon have all had flu shots. >> reporter: the information revolution was in its infancy. now public health researchers are taking advantage of internet technology to track the current pandemic. >> one ultimate resource for flu. >> reporter: at children's hospital in boston, epidemiologist dr. john brownstein and software developer have developed an application for the iphone. it works two ways. >> sent back to the phone alerts about h1n1 in your city or neighborhood or city, wherever you might be. the second way is in the fact people can report about illness into the system. >> reporter: google's flu trends cast google inquiries about flu from around the world. and the u.s. has been remarkably consistent with the cdc's

reporting of cases from selected doctors and hospital across the country. and then there is this combination of twitter and google earth. it shows people's comments about the flu or related problems and where they are in realtime. potentially identifying where cases are occurring and where they are most serious. >> you can actually see what's happening. >> another internet tool, health map.org, compiles reports about many diseases. >> in texas, actually, we're seeing huge amounts. >> while all these high tech tools may someday be new weapons in the war on flu, experts agree the simplest way to reduce your risk is still the best. wash your hands frequently and get the vaccine when it becomes available. nbc news, new york. >> robert, thanks a lot. joe and mika, i can tell you my little daughter started preschool yesterday, and it is all about washing hands. they're waiting to get these swine flu shots. the big focus in schools this year. >> that's good. >> no doubt about it.

it's frightening. >> they're definitely making a lot of changes in the area of schools. coming up next, we'll take a look at papers from around the country. also ahead on "morning joe," dan rather. he investigates how iran is using western banks to launder billions of dollars. and congresswoman jane harman explains why sending more troops to afghanistan is the wrong move. plus "morning joe" takes over dodger stadium. >> oh, my. >> we did it. that was really scary. there was a dramatic first pitch that we'll show you. coming up on "morning joe." i wish i knew then what i know now. get what dermatologists now recommend to fight aging... in new aveeno positively ageless multidefense. a combination of a high spf and powerful antioxidants...

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announcer: call today to schedule a free investment check-up, or visit a td ameritrade branch. (announcer) what are you going to miss when you have an allergy attack? achoo! (announcer) benadryl is more effective than claritin at relieving your worst mptoms. and works when you need it most. benadryl. you can't pause life. welcome back to "morning joe." live today from seattle starbucks. up bright and early this morning, and i can't get joe to come back here and work. oh, well. all righty. it's just before 3:30 on the west coast, 6:30 on the east coast. time for a look at today's top stories. the white house is offering a subdued report for a newly releaseded senate health care

proposal, calling it "an important building block" in the process. the bill, unveiled by senator max baucus, would require more americans to carry insurance, most americans actually, but does not include a public option. in massachusetts, republican lawmakers are planning to delayed today's vote that would grant governor duvall patrick the right to name a successor to ted kennedy's seat. meanwhile, joe kennedy, ted kennedy's nephew, has already said he's not interested in the job. and singer chris brown has 179 days of hard labor left after completing his first session of court-ordered community service for assaulting his girlfriend rihanna. the 20-year-old spent the day clearing weeds and brush in virginia. that's a look at the news. a final note, willie, there's going to be a press conference in less than an hour in new haven, connecticut, an update at the murder case at yale university. we'll get the latest information on that.

i go to you now in new york for a look at the morning papers. >> mika, i understand they'll make an arrest in the case. we'll watch that closely. right now a quick look at the morning papers. "the new york times," senator unveils plans for u.s. health care. senator max baucus gains middle ground but gains no gop votes. atlanta journal-constitution, senate health plan sets up showdown. liberals disappointed. gop calls plan partisan. "the wall street journal," the u.s. is p droing plans to develop a missile defense system in poland and the czech republic mainly because iran's long range missile plans were less advanced than we thought. "pittsburgh tribune-review," acorn calls for an independent probe on those highly publicized incidents. "denver post," big story out there, a colorado man being questioned as part of a terror probe. hasn't been charged with anything, but they're looking into him. coming up next, "the new york

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they have new house rules. some other guy yelling out "you lie." they have new house rules saying members of congress cannot call the president a liar, they cannot call him a hypocrite, and they cannot say he's dishonest. president bush said, hey, where were these rules when i was president? what's this all about? hey! >> apparently, jay had another huge night. >> oh, good. that's nice. >> my gosh. >> very exciting. >> he's been doing great. welcome to "morning joe." we're live in seattle. very excited about that. a great, great city. >> we've had a good tour of the west coast this week. i love seattle. and now that the little throwing thing is finally behind me, i

like dodger stadium. >> how's your arm? >> how's your arm? you did well. i was impressed. >> i was surprised. tommy lasorda didn't even give me pitching lessons, like he gave you. he gave you a little bit more than most pitching coaches usually give there. >> i didn't really understand what was happening. >> it was a private lesson, sort of a private lesson -- >> something about leaning in. >> but a public mauling. let's bring in right now mark leibovich. >> let's do that. he's so cheerful. i figure he's good in the morning. look at this face. >> mark leibovich. >> i've been doing my smiling exercises for you guys. >> that's good. >> how's seattle? >> beautiful. kind of rainy, though. >> we've been talking about it. we love the town. very, very moderate climate. the people are moderate, just like pat buchanan. >> pat buchanan, have you ever been to seattle? >> many, many times. great town.

just like ireland. all green. >> there's a restaurant called the dahlia lounge that you've got to go to. you get the coconut cream pie. it's something i have been -- whenever anyone goes to seattle, i tell people that. and go to starbucks, of course. >> now you've told america. we thank you for that, mark leibovich. let's talk about op-eds and start with "the wall street journal." >> public option light, it's called. "the political irony here is rich. if liberal health care reform is going to make people better off, why does it require a very harsh, stiff penalty to make everyone buy it? that's what president obama called it in his presidential campaign when he opposed the individual mandate supported by hillary clinton. he correctly argued then that many people were uninsured not because they didn't want coverage, but because it was too expensive. >> let's move on to gale collins, "new york times" columnist. >> "someday a bill will pass.

just hours before senator max -- futility is my middle name -- baucus had unveiled the long-awaited product of his blue ribbon, bipartisan committee on health care reform, remember that the whole legislative world came to a screeching halt so baucus' group could do its work. all summer long, the members floated above taudry political concerns and a meeting of the minds. now the final product has landed, its wishy-washiness exceeded only by its total lack of bipartisan backers." >> pat buchanan, "the new york times" said this morning the president may like the fact the baucus bill is out there and everybody hates it, suggesting that maybe in the end a compromise that could actually get the 60 votes needed in the senate isn't going to be popular with either side. what do you think? >> joe, just what we said was going to happen has happened. in the abstract, universal health care coverage, beautiful. in the concrete, when it came

out, when it came out of baucus' committees, now you fine these young people are going to be coerced into a system they don't want. they're going to have a 35% surtax on really popular and frankly lucrative. the big health care plans. all the details have come out. i think the republicans -- and they're going to fire on these things one eye one. for the first time, joe, i think the chance of passage of u.s. health care have fallen below 50%. >> i think, mark leibovich, last week pat was suggesting it was 50-50. a lot of concern about the spending mechanisms to pay for these health care bills. "the new york times" is also reporting that young people may find themselves being people that are paying the most to support this program, and also, of course, it's jay rockefeller, the liberal democrat from west virginia, saying that this bill

throws a 35% tax onto a lot of middle class americans. that's why he's against it. not a lot of good early reviews for the baucus plan. >> i saw a headline yesterday that said the baucus plan did receive the enthusiastic support apparently of max baucus. so, you know, at least it's a place to start. i think -- but my friend susie connelly had an interesting piece in "the washington post" today. to paraphrase john mccain, the fundamentals of this are still fairly sound. a lot of deals that have been in place with the constituencies that scuttle the clinton bill 15 or so years ago remain sort of strong. a lot of these people have held their powder. look, these things do tend to be greeted somewhat lukewarmly. i mean, these things are not bipartisanly applauded. it has been sort of looked at as a first step. obviously, not a very warm welcome, but it's part of a

process. >> it is part of the process. pat, max baucus has done something that the president has deliberately avoided, and that is he's gotten specific. and if at some point you're going to pass a bill, you've got to get specific and be ready to weather the slings and the arrows. pat, that's what baucus is doing right now for the president. >> exactly. except for the public option, i think the baucus bill is pretty much along the lines of what the president wanted, joe. but i can tell you, joe, this debate, i have to say, has really been poisoned, i think, by what former president carter did. what i think was something which was in two parts malevolent and ignorant in attacking all the people who have come out to oppose it somehow is racist when half of those people were with barack obama up until a couple of months ago.

>> it certainly was, and we've talked about it for some time. yesterday chuck todd from the white house said that the white house certainly had to be concerned with the 20% of americans that supported the president nine months ago don't support him now, but these 20% are the people that are in play, tht white house wants back. when jimmy carter suggests they may be fueled by racism, that makes the white house's job that much more difficult. the president is going out there to deliver his message, mika. >> yes, and we should talk about that. on the issue of racism, again, we feel there's a problem in this country with race. of course we do. >> no doubt about it. >> it has nothing to do with the dae bait in washington over health care and the other issues that might be leading to the decline in the president's approval ratings. it's ridiculous, and i don't understand what the former president is doing. >> i don't either. especially since, as craig crawford pointed out, he himself was accused of racism by kennedy backers in the 1980 campaign.

>> it's a dangerous word to be used correctly. that's all i'm saying. >> it's finding the lowest common denominator. >> that too. >> it just adds so much hatred. >> let's talk about the issue of over exposure. i'm conflicting with joe on this a bit. i think in this multimedia world we live in where voices are out there everywhere and anywhere, and there isn't a clear place to go for news, they go to where they choose to go. the president is doing a multi-platform set of interviews on sunday, five sunday talk shows, letterman as well. the heels of all these speeches, mark leibovich. what's going on. >> his critics certainly are saying this is over exposure part 10, part 100 for barack obama. the white house counters that, as you said, this is a new media landscape. people get their news in a much more fragments way. they believe that the president himself is the best advocate for

the position of their administration, and they're going to put him out there in as many places as possible. now, whether five sunday shows instead of one sunday show is a redundancy, you could argue. some people were telling me yesterday, well, the fact that we got five adds buzz to this, gets people talking about it, and it will certainly add to the -- i don't know if it will add to the debate, but it will certainly add to the mystique of a president who can think on his feet. >> mark, let me just ask you about that. obviously, you're reaching five different audiences. obviously, he's doing that on this platform. what about foxville? do you know what he's doing out there? >> i asked someone about that yesterday, and they said let me get back to you. i haven't heard that. they are doing univision, which is unprecedented. i'm sure they've been on univision, but this is a first

for them. they're considered one of the five now. how do you say over exposure in spanish? >> what's going on? do you think he's making a mistake? >> let me ask pat buchanan. pat, he's going on univision. he's going on letterman. he's going on five sunday morning shows, but he's not going on fox. is the white house suggesting that chris wallace is biassed? >> well, i think it's foolish to leave fox out of that because i don't think -- i think chris wallace is a tough customer on those shows, but, you know, joe, i don't understand the roadblock he's doing. when the president of the united states goes on david gregory's show, "meet the press," which is the number one show, anyone -- the best lines from that will be picked up and carried nationwide on all the cable shows and on all the network news shows all day long. you can get that same hit. if you do five shows, there's a

possibility you can make one blunder in those shows and one mistake, and that's what's going to be repeated everywhere. the white house has clearly rejected the advice of those of us who say you're overusing your main asset and then deciding to go all out with it, or the president has. it's his call, but i don't think it's the right course right now. >> mark, you were saying earlier -- >> i think that's old think. >> you're saying that's old think, but it makes perfect sense what pat is saying. let's say you go on "meet the press." you have a great interview. you go home. you know all networks are going to be covering that for the next 48 hours. you go on five shows, you get a chance at somebody to trip you up. any of us that would go through five interviews with are going to slip up, are going to make a mistake. and the way our media culture is is the way it's always been. that's what the media focuses on.

>> i think that's exactly right. i think there's an element of maybe showing off here. look, we have a president who can handle all five. bring them all on. i think -- look, he can handle the sunday show format. i think, you know, what they're particularly proud of is that he can do late night comments. he can talk about kanye west. he can go on sunday shows. he's a versatile, again, advocate for the position. but, again, when he went on leno a few months ago, the only thing people remember is the special olympics line, and who's to say that letterman, in the course of an hour -- it's going to be a long time -- isn't going to elicit something that takes over everything he says previously in the 24 hours. >> yeah. mark leibovich, thanks. i'm worried he's making a mistake. >> again, what the president needs to do, pat buchanan, really quickly, as we leave, he needs to say my humble opinion -- and he's a lot smarter than i am and his staff is -- stay off of tv, and on

sunday work democratic senators. i keep saying the same thing. the magic number is 60. get to 60 and pull democratic senators over, not by doing all these talk shows, but by working it the way lbj would work it. >> you're down to the short game, inside game. i can tell you sunday, everybody's going to ask him, what do you think of what jimmy carter said about joe wilson and all of that? they're going to be into all that have. >> that's what i'm talking about. coming up, we've got the moderator -- mark, thank you very much. we've got the moderator of "meet the press," david gregory, ahead of his interview this weekend with president obama. plus sports with willie geist. and we'll show you our day at the ballpark with the los angeles dodgers, including a "morning joe" first pitch. you're watching a special west coast edition of "morning joe" live from seattle. national car rental knows i'm picky.

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time for some sports. our top sports story, joe and mika throwing out the first pitch at dodger stadium. we'll get to that in just a few minutes. first let's talk about the boston red sox, red hot. looking for their seventh straight win. angels have a one-run lead. they walk in the tying run. you never want to do that. mike scioscia doesn't like the call. it doesn't change anything. a bloop single to left field. boston wins 9-8. they've won seven in a row. red sox are 6 1/2 games ahead of the rangers in the wild card race. they're pulling ahead in that one. suspensions handed out from tuesday night's brawl in the bronx. catcher jorge posada, shelly duncan, and the one who threw behind posada, they're suspended for three games each. suspensions started last night as the yankees continued their series with the jays. no fights but a good game. yankees down 4-2 in the bottom of the eighth when hideki matsui quietly having a really good year. two-run home run to right.

ties it up at 4 in the eighth inning. then in the bottom of the ninth, the infield is drawn in for the yankees' third string catcher francisco cervelli with the winning run on third base, and he sneaks one on the left side for the game-winning run. a.j. burnett, as has become his tradition, gives cervelli a shaving cream pie in the face. >> rockies and giants. bottom of the ninth, rockies up by one, but it gets interesting. ball thrown to shortstop. ball sails into the outfield. pablo sandoval scores. later in the ninth, giants with the tying run on third sitting right there for the taking. rafael betancourt strikes out to end the game. rockies win 4-3. they have a 3 1/2 game lead over the giants in the wild card race. dodgers hosting the pirates. big story of the game, mika and joe. that in a moment. the side story of the game

itself, bottom of the sixth. home run to center. dodgers win 3-1. they sweep the pirates. l.a. is 29 games over .500 for the first time since 1985. they've got a five-game lead in the n.l. west division over the rockies. coming up, the pitch heard round the world, full coverage. joe and mika throwing out the first pitch at dodger stadium. show and tell you weren't always my favorite day. with all the pet hair in the air, i'd spend class preoccupied, bothered by itchy eyes. but now i have new zyrtec® itchy eye drops. it works fast, with just one drop,

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we're calling it "news you can't use," but it's hardly news you can't use. this is big stuff. i'm real anxious to see this. i haven't seen it yet. yesterday the dodgers-pirates game at the fabled chavez ravine. joe and mika walked out to the

mound. i'm sure they threw perfect strikes right down the middle. let's take a quick look at their day at dodger stadium. ♪ ♪ >> my wife and i watch every day. >> thank you. >> he's in new york. >> this is "morning joe." >> thank you. >> so it's official. >> that's great. >> you're here in los angeles. >> i love it. >> tommy lasorda. >> that was great of you. i'm trying to picture what you look like. >> mika always says i'm fat. >> would you have any advice for throwing the first pitch out? >> mika's a little nervous. >> you've never thrown a ball.

i want you to hold it and make sure your thumb is right where it is. make sure of that. >> okay. thank you. i appreciate it. ♪ >> and please welcome the hosts of msnbc's "morning joe." mika brzezinski and joe scarborough. >> want to stand right there? >> no. ♪ >> wow, mika. i was a little concerned. can you hold her one more time with the ball.

♪ talking baseball >> that is great. mika, let me just say for the record, that was a great throw. they underestimated you. you come in on the infield. you threw it where he should have been. that was a great throw by you, and, joe, right down the gut as i expected. >> i think you hit a strike. >> look at that. john power edited that. that was good. >> tommy lasorda. you wonder what separates the good coaches from the great coaches. i think we saw yesterday in los angeles that the great coaches aren't afraid to dive in. >> that's right. >> get really close and personal with their subjects. >> you know, joe, tommy lasorda is fabled for being a players' manager, a real hands-on guy. i think we saw it right there. >> let me tell you something, yesterday in los angeles on a bright sunny southern california day, tommy lasorda, all hands. >> that was great. mika, great job. we're walking around dodger

stadium, and everybody's asking one question -- well, two. where's barnicle? >> yes, absolutely. >> and then where's willie? >> and they had a proclamation for you, willie. >> i heard. >> i didn't know nuns lived under the hollywood sign, but ifi was told yesterday that nuns lived under the hollywood sign, and they were making pumpkin bread for barnicle, buchanan, and geist. >> how exciting. i can't wait. good job, mika. all the training paid off. good job. it did. >> thank you, willie, for your lessons too. >> all right. it's the top of the hour. welcome to the joe scarborough show. we're in seattle. >> really, the joe scarborough show? >> that's our radio show. i'm sorry. >> somebody stayed up too late drinking with tommy lasorda last night. >> tired. >> we've got a lot to talk about. >> did you hear him talking about our radio show? >> he's a huge fan, listens

every day on kabc. anyway, we've got a lot to talk about today. jimmy carter once again bringing up the race issue yesterday. >> yep. >> the white house -- and you're going to see the clip -- doing what the white house always does, trying to keep race out of the discussion. they are not race baiting at all, even if some of his supporters are and some of their opponents on the far right are. and pat buchanan, i think the news of most import, the baucus bill is released and savaged by all sides. but as mark leibovich of "the new york times" said last hour, i'm not so sure that's a bad thing for the president. at least get the discussion started with some real specifics. >> sure. this is what was going to happen as soon as he got to the specifics. as i said in the last hour, joe, i do think health care is in a little more trouble today than i thought it was after the president's speech. there's still a chance because of what mark said. the elements, the components

both in terms of votes, if you use reconciliation, if you get that vote out of massachusetts, the votes are there. the forces are there. the question is can obama and the inside game bring all these folks together and say, we're not -- none of us is going to get everything we want. we all can get a good deal of what we want if we get together. that's the game now, and as we talked about, i don't think it's a game you win by going on david letterman. >> probably not. david letterman or these other shows. >> i'm still conflicted about the other appearances he's making. let's get to news. it's time for a look at the day's top stories. today congress will continue sizing up health care after the chairman of the senate finance committee unveils his $856 billion plan to overhaul the system. according to the congressional budget office, senators max baucus' proposal would reduce the deficit by $49 billion over

the first decade. although baucus is still optimistic he can gain republican support for the plan, it may be democrats that need the most convincing. >> there's got to be some discipline to other insurance companies that make them take seriously, not just competing with each other, but competing with somebody who, because they're nonprofit and don't have a marble headquarters and don't have to report to wall street and don't have to please their shareholders because they don't have any, then they can offer premiums at lower prices. now, will that mean they put the private insurance industry out of business? of course it doesn't. >> and, you know, jay rockefeller followed up with the 35% sur tax charge, which it looks like, if you look at these polls, the american people are picking up on. >> this gallup poll, brand new, shows 60% of americans believe that the government will not be able to improve coverage without

raising taxes or affecting the quality of care. and according to this morning's "wall street journal," the obama administration is dropping plans to build a missile defense shield in eastern europe. the decision reflects new findings that indicate iran's military technology is developing more slowly than anticipated. the move will likely be cheered by russian officials who see the proposed missile defense system as a potential threat. and officials in afghanistan face separate explosions rip through the country's capital this morning. according to defense officials, six italian soldiers were killed when an apparent suicide bomber attacked their convoy. at least four others were wounded. >> all right. >> with us now, the moderator of "meet the press," david gregory joining the conversation. where do we start? >> can we start here? >> oh, there we go, a dodgers fan. >> what do you think, david? i don't think i disgraced the family. you look darn cute. >> you know, if i could have ever been a stowaway on a

"morning joe" road show, that would have been yesterday. dodger stadium, very important to me. tommy lasorda. and i thought the throw was good. you know, for a catapult event. i think it was good. >> oh, for a catapult event? here we go. let's look at the throw again. >> no, david. are you being mean? well -- >> if we can at some point reroll that tape to show the perfect form for the fat guy on the left. and also, you've been a dodger fan for a long time. what are you seeing here, david gregory? tommy lasorda. has he always been sort of this hands-on guy. up close with his players. >> you know, what i saw there, especially when he put his arm around mika, to me that symbolizes how he was as a manager. he put his arm around his talent. he wrapped his arm around all angelinos to make us a community around the dodgers.

i think what mika experienced there was the kind of love and passion for the game that tommy lasorda has. >> of course, david gregory, you have love and passion for news. this sunday a big interview with president obama. pat buchanan, i have suggested that barack obama only go on "meet the press," because you only do one show, you hit it out of the park, and everybody follows that. of course, all the networks would play your great work. instead he's going to five different sunday shows and david letterman, and even david letterman's not -- you know, not that easy interview only because look what happened last time he went on leno. you say one thing wrong, and everybody picks it up, and that becomes the story. >> well, we're obviously looking forward to the interview on "meet the press." it's certainly the right form for him. let's be very clear what the president's strategy is now and that of his senior advisers.

they are trying to affect public opinion here. they've got to drive the public's support up for his version of health care reform. if they can do that, they can apply more pressure on not only moderate democrats but perhaps some wavering republicans on health care reform. olympia snowe from maine, she was thought to be the 60th vote. she's still wavering on this thought of supporting the max baucus bill, actually thinking against it. this is the kind of work that has to be done. and the president's supporters have said, this is where he's got to show some meddle, work this one senator at a time and do it effectively. he can make it an easier vote for senators to cast in red states. ron brownstein at the journal point out, you've got so many democrats out of red states in the last two election cycles,

that's the difficulty for the president to make that a safe vote. >> if the president does go on these five shows or six shows and goes on letterman, we all know where he stands on health care. we've heard him 100 times. i'd like to know, and i think americans would like to know, what do you think of what jimmy carter said? what do you think of the instability in american politics? what do you think of kanye west maybe on the late night show? all these questions are very interesting. folks like you and others are going to ask them. quite frankly, the answers to those questions, it seems to me, are, if they're not more important, are certainlyaudienc. and aren't these the answers that are going to be played all over the country that night from these appearances? >> well, we'll see what happens. i mean, i think -- look, from my perspective, i think from all of our perspective, we want to see the president sit down for a lot of interviews. we want to ask him a lot of direct questions, and i think that's a good thing. obviously, they've got their own strategy here in terms of who they want to try to reach.

i will say this. i think what you're seeing, particularly on the race issue with joe wilson and now jimmy carter, this is not at all what the president wants. as valerie jared, his senior adviser, is quoted as saying in "the new york times" this morning, yes, he could give another speech, as he did during the campaign, to initiate the national dialogue about race, but he wants to focus on health care. this president is uniquely qualified to initiate a national dialogue on race. that's not what he wants to do right now. in truth, it's not what he wanted to do during the campaign. that does not help him to do that politically. at this point, it's a distraction. the president described it during an interview a few days ago as the circus that takes over. that's not where he wants to be. it's what he experienced in the course of the summer, which is why i'm sure the white house isn't all together pleased with jimmy carter weighing in. >> i wonder, david, though, in terms of all these appearances and all these speeches we've seen on the issue of health care alone of late, is this -- what do you think the strategy is to sort of get in front of all these very bold voices that are

out there and some of them putting out untrue information? because it seems like, if you play hard to get with your audience, you might get more bang for your buck. >> well, but he went that road, and i don't think they felt it was very successful. i think now this is about the president owning the plan, having president obama health care plan that he can campaign for, the democrats can rally around. that's what he needs to happen. he needs for democrats to start to rally around his plan to get on board as opposed to having liberals going in one direction and moderates going in another. they need to be united here, and that's the message. it's to say, look, we don't have any republicans who voted for this thing. we'll be lucky if we can get senator snowe. we've got to be on board as democrats and think about reconciliation as a strategy, if we don't have 60 votes. this is where they are. this isn't about party unity right now. this has become easier for the president to say, look, here are

the details. this is what i'm running on and pushing. this is the point of the game where he doesn't have any more time. he's got to get people committed to that. >> david, obviously, getting the president to sit down for an interview, that is the gift for journalism. certainly for all the sunday shows. i'm just curious, when you found out that the president would be coming and you were able to talk to him on "meet the press," did you also know at the same time that he would be interviewed by home shopping network? >> and qvc. >> well, the way i'm approaching this, joe, is he's appearing on "meet the press" on sunday and some other shows. that's kind of how i'm thinking about it in my mind. >> seriously -- >> that's the way we look at it. >> if it's sunday, it's "meet the pregs." >> we're actually going to watch it. >> you're number one. you make news, my man. >> can i mention one other thing? i just want to mention there's another big national story, which is the virginia governors

debate, and i'm going to be monitoring a debate here today. you can get more information on our website, mtv.msnbc.com for details about the where and when. it's a hot race in virginia right now, and a lot of people think it's got national implications. >> it does have national implications. it's also going to be heard on our washington station on wmal right after our show. >> that's right. >> got to be very exciting. david gregory moderating that. also moderating "meet the press." if it's sunday, it's "meet the press." this sunday, news will be made, as it is every sunday. this sunday it's president obama who will be there. david, we're looking forward to that. >> thanks, david. >> thanks, guys. >> coming up, this morning's headlines out of the white house with chuck todd. also, "morning joe" has an exclusive look at the new cover of "time" magazine with richard stengel. dan rather is also coming up. he reports on how iran is using western banks to launder billions of dollars. and two days ago, former

presidential candidate ron paul was on "morning joe." today his son, senate candidate rand paul joins us. all that and much more. first, here's bill karins with a check on the forecast. >> good morning. thanks, mika. maybe i should call you the ace of our staff. let's take a look at the forecast. today we have showers out there currently in numerous areas. a lot of rain in the deep south. nothing horrible or causing too much flooding, but just a little more of a nuisance type weather. as far as the forecast, dallas to atlanta, rain on and off anywhere in between there. beautiful today from chicago to minneapolis, denver, kansas city. seattle, where joe and mika are, partly cloudy. the rest of the u.s. is going to see a rather nice thursday. you're watching "morning joe" brewed in seattle by starbucks. announcer: what if you could rewrite your hair's past

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i think the president, with all due respect, is just plain wrong and quite frankly ignorant with respect to race, if what we heard in the chamber that evening is somehow stoked by or stems from racism. i think it's unnecessary. i think it colors, if you will, this debate on health care in a very unfortunate way. >> don't support the tie, but i support what he's saying. oh, well. here with us now, nbc news chief white house correspondent and nbc political director chuck today. chuck, i've got to tell you, with all these interviews lined up on sunday, is the white house concerned the conversation is going to be about just that, other things as opposed to what they want to talk about? >> i can't crawl inside their head on this one. they always say, we're not worried about it. but i'm with you. you get the feeling that everyone's going to ask it as the first question. we're talking 12, 15 minute

interviews. you've just used, i don't know, 10% of the entire interview on each of these networks on this. you know, it's interesting. i really did think yesterday we would hear from the president as a way to sort of cut this off, cut off the base, to get past it. you wonder, is he going to -- how is he going to handle it this time? will he decide to -- you know, we've seen him doing it a couple of different ways when race has popped up and he's had to sort of calm the issue down. we had the big speech that happened during the campaign. obviously, when he stepped in it with the issue with henry gates in cambridge. we had the beer summit. you know, we wonder, will he say enough of this? will he show maybe not anger, but sort of show some frustration that, look, i don't believe any of this is race

based. i keep saying it, but enough already. maybe lecture the media, lecture his own supporters. i don't know. you wonder, is there a get tough on this issue in an odd way that the president can say, just to say no more. i respect president carter, but this isn't helpful. i don't view the world this way. obviously, i wouldn't have been elected president if i thought the world was this way. >> and, of course, chuck, gibbs came out yesterday, distanced himself and the white house and the president from jimmy carter. but then jimmy carter went out again and fueled the fire once again. i wonder if the president doesn't pick up the phone and call jimmy carter because you brought up the gates incident, which, of course, that was in the middle of july. if my memory serves me. >> right. >> and his poll numbers have been dropping for some time. they certainly weren't helped if you look at the day by day gallup tracking poll, by that whole incident. i doubt they'll be helped by this.

>> right. you know, joe, it's sort of odd here. it's almost as if they've had a harder time handling the race issue as president than they did during the campaign when we all thought it was going to be an issue during the campaign. the white house will say, this is a media obsession. this is the ultimate in a phrase that obviously i love to use, which is cable cat nip. to a degree, there's some truth to that. but part of it is, look, it was a former president that went out and said this. we've obviously seen a lot of incidents. we know that a lot of african-american politicians in particular are really upset about things these days. so you understand the behind the scenes political sensitivity and personal sensitivity on this. but it may take the president just saying, enough already. no more. and not just behind the scenes, joe. i wonder if he has to do it publicly to say, you know what, i'm not going to deal with this every three months in my presidency. no more.

if you're a supporter of mine, stop bringing it up. if you're an opponent of mine, stop bringing it up. just say enough is enough. >> it certainly is a distraction when the president doesn't need one. let's talk about -- you've got information about dick cheney. i understand he's in the hospital? >> apparently, he's going under -- i believe. we just got a note from his spokesperson who said he went into the hospital this morning. let me read directly from it. you don't ever want to get something like this incorrectly. the former vice president went to george washington university hospital this morning for elective surgery to deal with a lumbar spinal synopsis, and he's going to be having an operation. so clearly, something that has to do with making his back feel better. >> maybe so. let's talk about a topic that the vice president's talked about over the past eight years. that's the war on terror. the white house obviously is having to grapple with the fact

that the american people are growing tired of fighting the war in afghanistan, but a report out this week, recommendation by generals for more troops. what does the white house do? what direction do they go in? are they going to listen to the people or advice from the military generals? >> i think they're going to pretty much, which is the instinct of the white house, find a middle ground here. we've gotten a lot of briefings this week about what's coming with afghanistan. the first thing they're trying to do is reassure congress that they have a benchmark process. benchmark in this case is code word for exit strategy. and i think what you're seeing here is they're trying to set the table for a short term troop increase, and what you get the sense of is that they're saying, okay, we're going to do -- look, the commanders on the ground want some troops. we're going to give them some troops.

here are our benchmarks now. we're not doing well. they're doing these quarterly. in a year they'll say, hey, this worked. we're doing well. now we're out. i think what they're trying to do is figure out a way to measure improvement so that the minute they see the improvement, they can get out, and everybody is satisfied. >> all right. chuck, thank you so much. we're going to be getting updates from you throughout the day at firstread.msnbc.com. coming up next, we've got the new cover of "time" magazine. you're going to see it first right here on "morning joe." i'll tell you what, this one is going to grab your attention. a lot of americans are going to be talking about the cover subject. also, we're going to be talking to pat buchanan about afghanistan along with jane harman. and peter schiff is going to be announcing whether he runs for senate against chris dodd or not. we are in seattle. >> we're in seattle at starbucks on our way. where are we going tomorrow, chris? san francisco. >> if it's friday, it's san francisco.

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despite improved u.s. efforts to monitor arabian money in dubai, there remain many black holes. >> there are approximately 7,000 or 8,000 iranian businesses in dubai. now, a lot of these are the proverbial import/export concern, freight forwarding concern. a lot of them, quite candidly, are front companies set up by the iranian government in order to procure prohibited goods and technologies, and they're very effective. >> what a piece. that was a clip of hdnet's "dan rather reports." iran-manhattan project, a look at how iranian banks laundered millions of dollars. the host dan rather is here with us. tell us what you were talking about. this is a month long investigation by you and your producers. what did you find? >> what we found is that at least one very large and

venerable western bank has been laundering money secretly for the iranians to get cash dollars, so they could use the dollars to get the iranians to make weapons, including the makings of nuclear weapons. this has been going on for a long time. people say, why don't you use your own money? people who deal in these projects don't want anything but dollars. our investigation showed that, number one, tsb lloyds, which is based in london, has been doing this. secondly, very soon, within days, i think, another very big western bank will be announced as having been under investigation, and i think that charges will be brought against them. and besides that, a very large iranian operation, which has been run by the government and is also the subject of

investigation. here's the point. there's supposed to be sanctions that keep iran from getting access to u.s. dollars. they've been using these banks to launder this money for a long time. when we talk about banks, we talk about them being greedy, we talk about it in terms of the u.s. economy, which is something very serious. but this is extremely serious. >> this is shocking stuff. pat buchanan is in washington. pat, you have a question for dan. >> i sure do. dan, there's a major dispute going on. everyone knows iran is enriching uranium at a low grade, but there's a dispute as to whether they are going for a nuclear bomb and a nuclear capability. did you find anything in this investigation that leads you one way or another to believe that is exactly what they're doing, that a nuclear bomb is at the end of the road? >> good morning, pat. that is exactly my belief. intelligence operatives vary on how close they think iran is to having the bomb. but my own opinion, based on talking to some of these people,

is, one, iran can make a nuclear bomb just about any time they want to. my own opinion, again, is that the iranians prefer to be right up to the brink. they think it's to their advantage to be on the brink. once they announce, or once it's finally confirmed that they have the bomb, they're in a whole different negotiating pattern. so, one, i think they're capable of producing it very quickly. two, i think they want to be on the brink. they think that's a diplomatic advantage. if these banks keep helping them. there's no question not only will they have a nuclear weapon. they will increase their missile capability of delivering that weapon. >> we'll look forward to that report. mika is in seattle with a question for you. mika? >> dan, it's good to see you. i wonder what you think about this situation with former president jimmy carter in terms of how your knowledge with the media works. president obama is going to be doing five sunday talk shows this weekend. how does he get in front of that? the former president now speaking on this issue of race two times. you know it's going to come up

in the interviews. does the president perhaps consider coming out and saying enough is enough before these -- this round robin of interviews to try and deal with health care. >> i think he has to consider it, mika. this is not helpful. whatever one thinks or doesn't think about former president carter's statement, it came at precisely the wrong time for president obama. you know, one of the criticisms of president obama, whether you agree with it or not, it's an increasing criticism is he doesn't move bold enough, fast enough to try to contain things like this. but there's no question -- i'm not arguing with the former president carter that what he said was untrue, but the timing of it is most unfortunate for president obama. and if anybody wants to help president obama -- i know a lot of people don't. if anybody wants to help him, then they put the emphasis on this. look, this is not the time to talk about it this. it's too explosive an issue. many people, not all of them of

african-american heritage, on the other side who have a gut pull of what they consider to be code language on race to work against the health care proposal. so president obama -- this is the time for leadership. the american people who elected him thought they were getting a strong new kind of bold leadership. and unless president obama can regain the high ground, not just on this issue of race -- of course we have continuing race problems in our country. but get his own party, jimmy carter included, to pull behind him for such things as health care, then there's nothing but trouble ahead for him. >> good luck controlling jimmy carter, though, right? dan, great piece this week. dan rather reports, iran's manhattan project. we look forward to next week, more on afghanistan, where we'll become an expert on the subject. appreciate you coming in. >> pleasure to be here. >> dan rather, thanks so much. joe and mika? >> when we come back, we'll talk to rick stengel. he's going to unveil the new cover of "time" magazine.

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i don't think you can get people who are entrenched in their own hatred to stop. i think what we have to do is find the people who are willing to work together, the people who realize that mistakes will happen, and we've got to work for the betterment of the american people. >> bill cosby. he's going to be having a special on msnbc this weekend.

it's going to be very interesting. >> yes, it is. >> and, again, we've been looking at our e-mails and our twitter feeds this morning. i can tell you the anger and rage on the left -- i don't want to say the far left. i don't want to characterize it as the far left. there are a lot of people out there who believe, if you oppose president obama, you're a racist. or that if you don't agree with what former president carter said, you don't think racism exists, which is bad math. >> that is bad math, as we've been saying. both of us know personally, and i know not only -- throughout my political career, and i said it time and time again. a lot of republicans did. racism is alive and well in america, but certainly we've made great progress. >> and you have to be so careful with your words. >> whenever you bring up race, you have to be careful. i don't personally believe that president carter's been careful, and he's doing nothing -- and this is what people in the hard left don't understand.

chuck todd has said, and somebody wrote a nasty e-mail about chuck todd saying he's a tool because he believes, like david gregory believes, like pat buchanan believes, like everybody who's been on here that knows politics believes, like robert gibbs believes, jimmy carter is not helping president obama's cause. i'm sorry people on the hard left don't understand that, but it's just the reality. this white house does not want race base -- >> from my perspective, it doesn't help at all. and i was really surprised by it. again, we have to be so careful about the words being used. on that note, with us now, managing editor of "time" magazine, richard stengel, who is here to uncover the cover of "time" magazine, this week's issue. >> this is a big one. rick, who's on the cover this week? >> well, it's appropriate what we're talking about because our cover subject in some ways is at the center of this debate.

and the issue of the lack of civility in society, the difficult summer that we had, it's mr. glenn beck. some people would say he's actually pouring gasoline on some of these issues. some people would say that he is the pied piper of discontent in america. he's channeling a lot of the fear that people have right now. the issue of whether these attacks on president obama are a sign of racism is an interesting one, and i can't reckon with that. but glenn beck plays a role in what's going on in our society now where there's a lack of civility in political discourse and where there's a lot of concern and fear out there. >> rick stengel with the cover of "time" magazine. thank you for being with us, rick. we appreciate it. i need some tickets to the world cup in johannesburg. let's talk about that now. we'll talk about glenn. >> we can talk about

johannesburg, joe. >> we'll do that too. glenn beck's really taken off. despite the fact -- maybe because of the fact he's said some very intemperate things. accused the president of the united states of being a racist. glenn beck has said the president hates white people, and then a few minutes later turns around and says, well, that's not to say he doesn't like white people. talk about fanning the flames, glenn beck's been doing it, but he's getting paid lots of money. you try to nail him, and he'll go, oh, i'm just a rodeo clown. this rodeo clown is making a lot of people very angry. what did you guys find out? is he a rodeo clown? is this all an act? is he an entertainer? or does he really believe aus of these things he says? >> you know, i don't know all of the answers to those questions, joe, but our writer who did a terrific piece on beck, calls him the entrepreneur of anxious.

he basically is channelling a lot of anger and fear among people, and he's both channeling it and stoking it at the same time. he talks about the fact that his influences are from show business, that he's an entertainer, that he's not, in fact, a news person or a reporter or a journalist in any way. and that's what makes him so interesting. and it's part of a long history of american tradition. one of the things i write about in my editor's letter is richard hofstedter's famous book about the stalin of american politics. he goes back to the founding days of paranoia and fear of both left and right. not just the right side, not just the left side, but it has coar coursed through the american bloodstream on both sides of the ideology. that's what you were saying, joe. >> let me say quickly, as a consider conservative, a lot of

times a conservative voice will rise, and in the past the mainstream media hasn't gotten it. they immediately will throw out words like paranoid and angry. in this case, when you have glenn beck going out and suggesting, as he did several months ago, that fema may be setting up concentration camps. when you say the president of the united states hates white people, it seems to me that's the definition of paranoia. >> it seems to me a lot of people have different reactions to glenn beck. he has a huge following. >> a lot of people love him. >> i will say my reaction is one of real concern. i think it's because i feel like the conservative voice isn't being well represented. he's tapping into something that may not be so constructive in terms of raising the bar of the conversation and representing the conservative voice in an elegant way. what does he tap into, rick? >> one of the things that we saw in the poll that we did last week and that lots of polls are showing is that there's a lot of fear among the electorates.

there's a lot of uncertainty. i think a lot of this is provoked by the fact that the economy is still not recovering for regular folks the way it is maybe for bankers here in town. and so he, i think, is channeling this angst. he's channeling the angst that americans feel about moving into this new century and having a new president, an african-american president. that's your question, mika. is he just channeling this, or is he fueling this, making it worse? we would all say -- and "morning joe" is the exemplar of this -- we can disagree about things without being disagreeable. i don't think that's the case with glenn beck. >> or kind of a radical character. you know, you have to be a clown. >> that's at least our goal, to disagree but do it in a way that you actually move the debate forward instead of embracing conspiracy theorys. >> or dropping into angst. >> pat buchanan, i certainly am not talking about you.

we've not talked about glenn beck before. but i've talked to a lot of conservatives. when i mean conservatives, i mean small government, libertarian conservatives, they weren't big fans of glenn beck who think that he does come across as a clown, as somebody who's paranoid, somebody that doesn't help the conservative cause. could glenn beck actually hurt conservatives in 2010 and possibly in 2012? as we try to find the middle of america like reagan did. >> glenn beck is not a traditional conservative. what he does do, joe, is he mirrors the anger, the frustration, and the rage and the sense of fear and apprehension in middle america that they're losing the country they grew up in. it's not simply the lost jobs and the lost factories, but the mass immigration they see, illegal aliens. they see the culture that comes in from hollywood is utterly different from what they grew up with. these people, quite frankly, are alienated more and more from the

center of american politics, republican and democratic, and he mirrors it. to a degree, he leads it, and i think the word stokes it is fair as well. but this is a sensation, joe, when you get someone who's getting the kind of audiences he's getting in the late afternoon, not even in primetime, it's really something folks ought to look at. >> and, rick stengel, he makes, i understand, about $20 million a year. stoking anger pays well, doesn't it? >> it does. we call him the entrepreneur of angst in the story. >> angst sells. >> unfortunately, angst sells on the far right, and angst sells on the far left. >> you're absolutely right. >> that's why i'm afraid we have the type of coarse debate we've had over this past summer. rick stengel, a lot of people are going to be talking about this cover for some time. >> up next, dr. rand paul, the

son of former presidential candidate ron paul will be here. he's also running for senate in kentucky. we'll get his views when "morning joe" continues live from seattle. how to get rich, by america's health insurance companies.

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we ought to obey the constitution, live within our means and balance a budget, quit war mongering and quit the welfare state. minor things like that. eventually you don't need the federal reserve. conservatives love it because you can pay the military bills, liberals love it because you can pay the welfare state bill. it's all a tax, it eventually hurts the people you're trying to help. >> with us now republican candidate in the kentucky senate race dr. rand paul, the son of ron paul. thanks for being with us, rand. let me start by asking are you as much of a big government liberal as your father? >> i heard that voice, i recognized that voice. you know, i think we might be considered to be constitutionalists, limited government, the main thing that motivates me to run is that dad i think we're drowning in a sea of debt, our country's going the

wrong direction. i sense that uneasiness, though, and that discontent that's out there. i've been to the tea party movements, spoken to 700 people in bowling green, the largest political event ever in bowling green was a tea party and it's not republicans, it's not democrats. and it's not just people unhappy about taxes. they are mostly worried about debt, about the degree of debt of our country and they are people who truly say our kids and our grandkids will pay for this. i go one step further. i think it's more imminent that we will pay for this through inflation in a year or two when the push comes to shove. >> rand, let me ask you this question. are you finding like "the new york times" found, "the washington post" found, a lot of maintreem stream media found this protest this past weekend that there are a lot of conservatives out there that are very disappointed in the republican party. that that wasn't a republican protest, that was a conservative protest. are you finding that and do you think that could help your

chances in, basically, upsetting the gop's best laid plans? >> absolutely. i go to gop picnics now and i say i've yet to meet a republican primary voter who would have voted for the bank bailout. yet half of the republican leadership did. this is your time for new leadership. i don't get booed, i don't get things thrown at me. i'm having people come up to say yes, we did fail, we didn't do a very good job with the deficit. we get an a-plus for reducing taxes but c minus for reducing spending. we as republicans we lost our believability on the debt. we've got to do something to regain our believability. >> rand, let me help you out here. you may not be able to say it because you're running in a republican primary and i'm not. we don't get a c-minus for reducing spending, we get an f. over the past eight years, horrific. we spent at a faster rate.

let's go to pat buchanan. he's got a question for you. >> rand, right now we're spending something like 26, 27% of the federal level, the gross national product, probably collecting 17% in taxes. that's 10% of the economy. how do you cut the budget of the united states by 10% of gdp, where do you start chopping? >> right. well, i tell people i won't vote for any unbalanced budget. that's where you start. republican or democrat. how you cut it, i think you have to make it simple, you have to tell people in a simple way how you would balance the budget. i think you introduce 2005 budget next year. you know, let people know that in 2005 we spent $3 trillion, could we not get by with $3 trillion? we've gone from $2 trillion in 2002 to $4 trillion. we doubled the spending. i think you have to say enough's enough. and i think the problem with republicans right now is that

obama's budget was $1.75 trillion in dent, but the republican alternative was $500 billion in debt with a 10-year plan to balance the budget. our balance the budget plans are like the old soviet agricultural plans, they mean nothing and the numbers never mean anything and we never achieve our goals on balancing the budget. even president obama they said he's going to cut the deficit in half. he tripled the deficit in one year and is going to cut it in half in four years? things are out of control. there is an uneasiness and people sense it, republican and democrat. there is definitely a discontent out there. >> dr. rand paul, thank you very much. welcome to the show. hope to have you back. >> next time i want to go to seattle. i want to come to seattle. >> we'll get you there. thank you so much, rand. coming up next, economist peter schiff has a major announcement. he of course is the guy that predicted the collapse of wall

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welcome back to "morning joe." it's just after 8:00 in new york city. we're going to sweep you back

west to seattle where joe and mika are at the starbucks. new york city, a beautiful shot of the statue of liberty with a cruise ship behind it. washington, d.c., you see the washington monument and all that great city has to offer. now the directors take from tj, a dark shot of tampa with towers in the background. bring it west to las vegas, 5:00 in the morning there, plenty of action going on, table game you're interested. los angeles, mika threw out the first pitch at the dodgers game yesterday. and did so beautifully. we'll show you that. and then on up to the great northwest, the great, great city of seattle. that's where we find joe and mika. >> it is the middle of the night but it's gorgeous here. >> it's gorgeous. we love seattle. and we're at starbucks and -- right through there. we're not too far from the first starbucks store which we're

going to be looking at. >> we're getting a tour. >> we got a lot to talk about. we have gail collins. she's going to talk about max baucus. we're going to talk about that. and baucus caucus which apparently is inhinted -- inhabited by one person. >> and the president's round robin of interviews, is he overexposed and is he going to get inundated with more questions 0 from one former president who keeps saying the same thing that perhaps some think he shouldn't be saying. >> the white house certainly is concerned about it. >> we'll get to that. >> we'll talk about that. first through the news. >> time now for a look at some of today's top stories. former president jimmy carter is repeating his assertion that much of the recent anger directed at president obama stems from racist attitudes. it comes as the white house tries to distance itself from

the comment. >> the president does not believe that -- that the criticism comes based on the color of his skin. i don't think that -- like i said, the president does not believe it's based on the color of his skin. i don't know whether it's a fine point or not so fine point. as i said sunday, the president does not believe that it's based on the color of his skin. i guess i'm the victim of being consistent. look. i'm saying i don't think that the president does not believe that -- i forget how the original question was, the majority of this is based on that. i just don't subscribe to that. >> boy, and of course that's what the white house has always done, for people in the far right that suggest that the white house is playing the race card in this or any other case, it's just not correct. >> there's a lot -- >> they have always run from this type of talk. >> race is everywhere, the race

issue is everywhere, in everything. the question is how much so and how predominant it is in this argument. i would not -- i just don't understand the words the former president is choosing here. >> right. there's no doubt a small segment of the society -- >> sure. >> is racist. and they are going to dislike him because of the color of his skin. but to bring that into this debate again two days in a row not helping the president's cause. >> today congress will continue sizing up health care after the chairman of the senate finance committee unveiled his $856 billion plan to overhaul the system. although senator max baucus is optimistic he can gain republican support for the plan, it may be democrats that need the most convincing. >> there's got to be some discipline to other insurance companies that make them take seriously, not just competing with each other but competing with somebody because they are nonprofit and don't have you

know, a marble headquarters and don't report to wall street and don't have to please their shareholders because they don't have any, that they can offer premiums at lower prices. will that mean they put the private insurance out of business, of course it doesn't. >> and we're awaiting a live news conference from connecticut, new haven, connecticut to be specific where in a few moments the police will discuss the latest developments in the murder investigation of a yale graduate student. according to reports an arrest is expected this morning of 24-year-old raymond clark who is named as a person of interest in the case. they interviewed him. they found scratches on his chest among other things, then they have to release him yesterday but it looks like they may be close to making an arrest today. >> a lot to talk about today. jimmy carter's remarks, also health care reform, max baucus unveiled his plan yesterday, to the collective snooze of a lot of senators.

pat buchanan is with us and with us in new york columnist for "the new york times" gail collins writes senator max futility is my middle name baucus had unveiled the long-awaited product of his blue ribbon -- all summer long the members floated above concerns and labored on the meeting of the minds. now the final product has landed. its wishy washiness exceeded only its total lack of bipartisan backers. gee whiz. gail collins, what i did this summer. for max baucus not a really inspiring essay, is it. >> you know, i feel who would have thought when barack obama was being sworn in, everybody was so excited that we'd spend all of our time talking about

max baucus. it was not what the plan was all about, i've got to say. >> no doubt about it. lawrence o'donnell, though, was saying even last year when the debate was between hillary's health care plan and barack obama's. don't worry, max baucus is going to write this, a guy that nobody heard of which i guess, gail, suggests the more things change, the more they stay the same. washington is in the end, still washington. >> it is. i hope something is going to be passed. i believe this. i'm an optimistic person. bills will be passed this year. something will be done by this congress. you wouldn't know it from looking at it now. >> and he's getting hammered by both sides. you've got the right obviously not going along with him, even a moderate like olympia snowe. and then on the left, jay rockefeller talking about a 35% surcharge he says his miners in

west virginia can't afford. >> a lot of the democrats are feeling where's the love right now. we won the election, we came in and now all we're doing is worrying about what chuck grassley from iowa, a republican, thinks about this bill. what about us, we're the majority, we won, and nobody cares whether we like this bill or not. it's hard on them. >> pat buchanan, i asked you earlier in the year whether ronald reagan would do what barack obama was doing, given the choice of offending his base by reaching out to the middle or applying to his base you said in that first year, play to the base, roll over your opponents, do whatever it takes. if that in fact is the case for ronald reagan, is that not the case for barack obama? and should he not just be concerned about getting 60 democrats on board? >> joe, i don't think obama can do what reagan did. reagan had his base solid. they wanted him even to be tougher and he reached out a bit

to get the bull weevils, and that's what obama is doing but what he's telling his base is what they want most is public option, you're not going to get it. so his package now has lost a lot of excitement and drama. this is really a nothing burger almost that you see baucus put out there. and the question for gail is this. he's still got the 59, 60 votes in the senate, the house, but the lack of morale, diminished morale on the democrats, do you think that could imperial any large bill? >> it's going to be a problem. i think you're right. it's absolutely going to be a problem for him. but you know, to go back, i love this back on pat, the republicans are coming at him from two sides. they are coming at this bill from two sides. there's the it's going to cost too much, what about the deficit vote, and there's the you're taking things away from

medicare/medicaid, you're going to ration care, folks and the same folks if you can't come at these from both sides, spending too much and not enough and not make people feel frustrated and concerned and irritated. >> gail, you have to do what you have to do. >> let me tell you something. i've got to say, as somebody that was in the middle of the 1995 efforts, not to reform medicare but to save medicare, i was offended day in and day out as democrats tried to scare senior citizens -- i remember newt gingrich saying it's the low point after political party to try to win votes by scaring seniors. gail, that seems to be what some republicans are trying to do right now. >> you know, it really is. and you're absolutely right, joe, this is something that both sides have done over time. but you know, i used to spend a lot of time going to northern

ireland and places like that. there has to come a time when people say okay, evil things were done in the past to us but we're going to clean this up now and start and go forward. and you've got to decide what it is you don't like if you're going to send some kind of a message that's going to take us anywhere. the republicans aren't doing that. >> as pat says, mika, you got to do what you got to do. >> i want to touch on something gail said earlier and ask you a question. because she said you know, something will get done. we'll get some sort of something. i'm not sure how much of a good thing that is, given what's happening in washington now. what's the political ramifications potentially of anything getting through down the road because there is so much division and what's the quality? >> i said this before. i'll say it again. when i first got to congress, a veteran came up to me and said son, you will never lose elections for a bill that you vote against. i found out for the most part he

was right. i'll tell you what my concern is. you have republicans on one side waving their pennants, democrats on the other, everybody caught up in the moment. gail, what scares me, and i don't use the word often here, but i will use it in this case, what scares me the most about this debate is the ma lig nancy that has begun here in this health care debate that will carry on and haunt republican and democratic presidents in the future. we all know, we all know, medicare's going bankrupt, we all know medicaid is going bankrupt. we all know health care costs cannot be sustained. they will -- they will cripple our economy. that's not hyperbole. they will cripple the u.s. economy. we're not addressing cost savings. you try to save a little bit of money in medicare and suddenly

you hate seniors. you try to counsel for end of life, suddenly you're setting up death panels. and republican president is going to have to face this in the future. a democratic president is going to face it in the future but this summer has only made it more difficult for future presidents, not to just save medicare and medicaid but to save our economy. we're in dangerous waters here, gail. >> i think you're absolutely right. and i got to throw it back again on the republicans here. the democrats came in most of them running to do more things with government. in order to give them the kind of grounding, the kind of cover they need do the things everybody knows we need to do about the economic side, you've got to have help from the republicans. you've got to have them standing back saying okay, this is the way we want you to go instead of running from both sides. they are making it much harder to ever do anything on this issue and you're certainly not going to wean the democrats away from saying you're killing

medicare, you're killing social security by doing what's being done right now. >> gail, we'll get back to this topic i'm sure. stay with us. coming up, economist peter schiff, remember him from his appearances on "morning joe." he predicted the economic crisis. he has another major announcement to make. will he run against chris dodd for the u.s. senate in connecticut? his answer is next on "morning joe." plus, we're getting inyou jobless numbers. we'll get a check on business before the bell with cnbc's erin burnett. and congresswoman why sending more troops to afghanistan is the wrong move. first, here's bill karins with a check on your forecast. >> good morning. we had about a half hour airport delays at the baltimore area, rain earlier today. now it's beginning to clear out a little bit. so far we're all good at the airport. not only in the east but across the country. everyone's waking up to ideal flying conditions. a chance ever showers today, cool weather. i-95, the rest of the country,

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welcome back to "morning joe" on our west coast tour. we're in what, thursday, must mean we're in seattle. >> you know it's seattle. >> had the most amazing very strong cup of coffee. here with an important announcement this morning, peter

schiff, you might remember him, the president of euro pacific capital. author of "crash proof." >> peter has been predicting it. you can go on youtube if you haven't seen it. you can see him mocked by one financial expert after another over the past four or five years predicting this imminent collapse. he was right. they were wrong. he announced this. >> yes. >> it's coming. peter, do you have another announcement this morning? will you run for the united states senate against chris dodd? >> you know, about a year ago i think, there was a grass roots effort to try to draft me to run for the u.s. senate. it wasn't something on my mind but there were a number of people who contributed to the effort, i received e-mails and telephone calls over the years, ultimately prompted me to set up an exploratory committee. i launched a website, schiff for senate.com and better than 10,000 people have contributed more than $1 million that convinced me to run for the u.s.

senate. and what i think that shows me is there is a growing number of americans who are fed up with what's going on, who understand that washington does not represent the solution to our problem but the source of our problem. unfortunately, the economic collapse that i predicted is going to get a lot worse precisely because of the things the government has done over the last year to try to solve the problem that they created. >> that must mean you're running. >> is that a yes? >> what i decided i can't sit idly by. i think it's important to stabbed up for the american taxpayer, our country, try to put a stop to this so i have decided to become a candidate for the u.s. senate in my home state of connecticut. >> there we go. >> you're going to be running against chris dodd, obviously chris dodd has been very involved in the financial

community for sometime. what's going to be your key issue against senator dodd? >> well, first of all i hope to eventually be running against chris dodd. initially i'm running against four or five other republicans who are in the race right now who also want to run against chris dodd. but the main reason that i think we need to get rid of chris dodd, he represents all that's wrong with congress. i mean, he is potentially the poster boy for the economic crisis. and not only the crisis of the past but the most bigger crisis we're going to go through over the next few years if someone doesn't go to washington and put a stop to these destructive policies. >> pat buchanan. >> peter, if you're a senate candidate let me ask you, would you support more american troops in afghanistan? >> well, i want to bring american troops home. i don't think we have the money to fund the troops that we have all over the world. we're borrowing money from japan, borrowing from china and saudi arabia, we need to bring our budget under control. we need to have a sound economy

before we can afford the luxury of having troops around the world. >> do you have alternative health care plan? do you think republicans should come up with their own version of health care reform in 2009? >> i think what the government has done is a disgrace to health care in this government. they have driven up the costs with government subsidies and excess government involvement. the solution to health care is the same solution to anything. the same way we have a solution to clothing or food. it's the free market. it's individual entrepreneurs. it's competition. it's the profit motive, the invisible hand, everything that made this country great. we need to get government out of health care so we can bring private market forces back into it. and we can have individuals in power to make their own choices, let doctors compete on quality and on price. and we can do that if we roll back government. if we go in the direction of the obama administration we're going to compound the problem, we're

going to drive health care cost even higher and drive quality lower. >> aren't health care costs exploding now in an unsustain able sflat. >> yes, because of government. why aren't other costs exploding. if you look where the government gets involved whether it's in education or health care, you see the same dynamics. even if you look at health care, you look at certain segments of health care where the government isn't involved where you don't have all of the insurance companies like eye lasik surgery, prices are coming down and the quality improves because you don't have the government subcy dicing procedures. >> but there are time when's the government needs to get involved, take north carolina, alabama, other states where one insurance company controls 80%, 85% of the health care business in the state. shouldn't the government get involved with antitrust measures and make sure there is real competition? >> sure. i think that's one thing -- i think the government should open

that up. maybe that would be one area of the commerce clause, i think the government has a right to intervene and say look, to prevent states from making it illegal for citizens of one state to patronize an insurance company in other states. there are things that the government can do in the way of malpractice reform to bring down health care costs. there are things the government can do. but nationalizing health insurance, what the government wants to do now is not going to make the problem better, it's going to make it worse. >> and let's talk about more regulation. obviously wall street, bankers were allowed to leverage their assets 40 to 1, it was absolutely devastating. do you not agree that the s.e.c. over the past eight years should have been more engaged, should have enforced regulations more aggressively. >> the problem was not necessarily the s.e.c. the federal reserve. the reason these institutions were so leveraged the federal

reserve gave them the money. they were the source. alan greenspan let anybody know if anybody lost money the fed was going to come to the rescue. you had this giant moral has erld. >> but petering that's part of the problem but you've got to look at the s.e.c., and whether you talk about bernie madoff or sitting back and allowing 40-to-1 leverage rates, played a role along with cheap money and cheap credit. >> the one place where the government should have regulated was fanny and freddy. those two operated with government guarantees so there were no free market forces reining them in. they should have had more regulations in fanny and freddy. people like christopher dodd were able to protect and prevent regulation from reining in their reckless activities. >> peter, the state democratic party in connecticut wasted no time welcoming you to the

political arena. they say despite his groupie like following schiff has few qualifications to run for senate, he's publicly admitted he can't remember the last time he voted. they go on to say you lost money for your clients. what do you say? >> you know, most of those allegations are not true, particularly with respect to how i've done for my clients. i've been a broker all of my life. i think i had in the last ten years one year where clients lost money, i think 2008. 2009 for most investors more than recouped losses i think i have a good track record in the investment world. >> worried about the lack of experience? >> no. if fact i haven't had experience ruining the country, that i haven't brought the banking system to its knees help destroy our health care system. that's my biggest attribute. the problem with this country we have all these experienced politicians running the show and it's a disaster. as i said the real economic crisis is coming. what they just laid the

foundation for is going to make the collapse of 2008 look like prosperity compared to where they are leading us. somebody needs to go to washington and educate the politicians that they are the source of these problems. and that if they keep doing what they have been doing, that you know, 2010, 2011, we could have massive inflation and if people think unemployment is high now wait till they see how high it's going to get if we continue. >> peter schiff, you've been a senate candidate for seven minutes and already attacked by democrats. welcome to politics. thank you for making the announcement on "morning joe." great to have you. >> one last attack for you, peter. i was a reporter in connecticut for a decade and heard a lot from reporters over the past few days saying you need to talk to the local media. they are asking why you are not. >> this -- we're big in connecticut. >> i got an interview with the local media later this afternoon. i spoke with a reporter last night from my home.

i'm talking to the local media when they want to seek me out. >> coming up, peter, thanks. >> peter schiff announces he's running for senate. >> here on "morning joe." we're going to get a check on weekly jobless claims from cnbc's erin burnett. hey, has anybody seen barney? he better not be on the bed. you know you're gonna need it. why not stock up now? get everything you need for fall cleaning and fall allergies at an unbeatable price. save money. live better. walmart. ( whimsical rock music playing )

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we're following breaking

news out of new haven, connecticut where police have announced an arrest warrant in the killing of yale graduate student annie le. live pictures of the apartment complex that 24-year-old raymond clark who works in the lab as an animal technician where le's body was found on sunday, right before she was to be married. we'll follow that story. >> msnbc will follow that. new jobless numbers. you want new information on anything, where do you go? >> where do you think? >> you go to some pedestrian wall street -- no. you go to an international superstar. there's only one international superstar covering the street. she is of course cnbc's erin burnett. >> you must be tired. we love the west coast but wow, it's early out there. okay. the headline this is morning on jobless claims and housing starts.

jobless claims, we did have a little bit of a drop which is a positive thing for the market. continuing at what we've seen, marginal improvements in the labor market. continuing claims picked up but i would say all together, though claims are still high this reinforces what we've seen, which is slight improvement in the labor market. in the housing start front, we know in housing, this is crucial. housing starts rose. permits an indication of future building. highest since november. the important headline is sort of in the data. that is it was a surge in building of apartments, people actually starting breaking ground on new homes for single families dropped about 3%. so, a bit of a mixed set of data on housing which raises the question about where we're going to go from here. we know the white house says, i'm not inclined to do a second stimulus. however, it all depends on what you count as a second stimulus.

putting through another american reinvestment act is a stimulus. things like extending the new home buyer credit as you know, $8,000, a quarter of the homes bought this year were sparked by that credit. it's going to expire in november and is expected it's going to be continued and perhaps expanded for all buyers, not just new buyers, maybe more than $8,000. it could be a cost up to $100 billion to do that. that won't count as stimulus. but a lot of money. >> do most economists on wall street still support a second stimulus plan, or the concerns about the deficit and runaway spending trumping the need to get the economy jump started? >> they do not support a second stimulus at this point. i think that's clear. but they do -- it's much more of a fight in terms of whether to keep spending the money that's out there. most of them would say keep spending it, keep in mind we're going to have $400 billion less

of that on january 1. $400 billion that are keep going through the economy and that's part of the first stimulus. housing, those things are going to be expensive. going to require borrowing and they are not going to count as a second stimulus. back to you. >> all right. erin burnett, great to see you. thanks always. take care. she's right, it is early. it is so early. >> all right. up next, democratic congresswoman jane harman, how she thinks we can win in afghanistan. we'll have her take. >> and also we've got our round table coming up. "the new york times" gail collins.

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there is no immediate decision pending on resources because one of the things that

i'm absolutely clear about is you have to get the strategy right, then make a determination about resources. you don't make determinations about resources and certainly you don't make determinations about sending young men and women into battle without having absolute clarity about what the strategy is going to be. >> okay. here we go and here with us now democrat from california, representative jane harman, recently in "the washington times," she wrote this about the problem with afghanistan. it's the corruption, stupid. raising troop levels is the wrong place to start. the discussion of how to move forward, better go vern nance is the right place, that way the additional troops will be afghaning, it is their fight and they should constitute the overwhelming majority of the forces fighting to protect their country. congresswoman harman, is that the bottom line. i think there may be concerns that we need to stay there and try to get more established

before we go home. >> well, i'm not arguing against staying there, but i am arguing that we need a better strategy as president obama said. and that strategy begins with eliminating or at least vastly reducing the corruption otherwise afghans will not believe their government serves them and they will join as they are the taliban in increasing numbers and any counter insurgency mission will not succe succeed. working on number one, correcting this drastically flawed election and two, insisting that there be some sort of unity government with transparent processes that delivers services to its citizens is the right place to start. we forget the lessons of iraq and iraq would never have gotten to where it is if the sunni population hadn't decided to fight al qaeda.

now we need the afghan population fighting the taliban. >> jane, we have "the new york times" gail collins with us. she has a question. >> congresswoman, you must be hearing this a lot from your constituents now. does this ever work over the long run? you send in troops, they are going to stay for a long time, fix the country, everything is going to work out over the long run. does that ever work? >> i'm not for sending in troops for a long, long time. i'm for a strategy that will help the afghan people live peaceful lives. we have made that promise to them. we left afghanistan once and guess what happened t. taliban and al qaeda came in and harmed us. so this is a lesson we should learn. but our presence ongoing needs to be to help develop the country. and insist on effective government. not to throw more u.s. troops and nato troops at the problem. i predict that will not work. most of our military leaders say we can't win militarily and i agree with what president obama

just said on this show or in the clip you had, which is, we need a better strategy and i went to that classified meeting yesterday that presented the metrics and made this case in that meeting, by the way. and i think the top levels of our government are listening. >> pat buchanan, gail collins of course has written an op-ed talking how the baucus plan is attacked from all sides. you listen to what conservatives and liberals are starting to say, i would not call jane a liberal, she's a centrist, but people of the right and the left, peter schiff on the right, george will on the right, you, others, real concerned about sending more troops to afghanistan. the president might find himself in a shrinking middle fairly soon on this issue of more troops to afghanistan. >> you know, joe, there is forming up something of the left/right coalition. if you will and end the war

coalition that it doesn't seem to be a winnable war at the cost it's going to require. i would like to ask congresswoman harman this. why, after eight years are our afghans unwilling to fight for our vision of what their future ought to be or far less willing than the taliban are to fight and die for eight years for their vision of afghanistan. >> i think -- i wouldn't quite put that the way, pat. i would say the taliban has a clear vision. they want to return that region to the 7th century and get rid of us in the region. that i get. and it's wrong. the afghan people have lived in a war situation for a very long time. and i think what they want and i know this because i was in kandahar and talking to tribal leaders, they want a peaceful situation where they live. in kandahar the tribal elders said the most important thing is

get karzai's brother out of there, who is the governor of the area and hamid karzai told us on the trip that he washed his hands of the area, that's where the highest concentration of taliban is. so i think they would love to be part of a peaceful country and would help their government succeed if it delivered reasonable services and security to them. >> all right. jane, it's always great to see you. congresswoman jane harman, thanks for being here. coming up next action our political round table with "the new york times" gail collins and pat buchanan when we return. achoo! (announcer) what are you going to miss when you have an allergy attack? achoo! (announcer) benadryl is more effective than

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let's not get bogged down. our political roundtable. with us gail collins and patrick buchanan, willie geist and mika and myself here in seattle. gail collins, you called health care reform a great hairball. but you suggest that there is a bill that is not a great hairball but republicans are trying to tar and feather with the same broad brush as health care reform. what program is that? >> that's my favorite program now, the student loan program. there's a student loan reform bill that's actually making its way through the house now that got a tiny bit, actually, of republican support down there. it's such an emnently sensible plan. i hope this will not get hair balled up with everything else. >> pat buchanan, it seems the president who has had a pretty rough nine months as far as partisanship has a great opportunity as we move forward

into the next year and start talking about education reform. he sounds, the president sounds, secretary of education sounds like a lot of republicans sounded back when i was running for congress in '94. >> i think he does. everybody's looking at the problem of education. but i frankly am a pessimist. the test scores keep going down. i will say this. the president has been terribly served. he had a good night, a partisan speech, he had a great night, he turned it around. and he accepted joe wilson's apology for that gaffe that wilson made, that gauche act. but ten days later the democrats are still pounding the guy and it turned him into a martyr, distracted the president from his main goal here. i think the president has been badly served because he accepted the apology. >> he really did. that was a brilliant political move, the president looked

gracious, bigger than those attacking him. >> somebody actually two somebodies started making money off of it. >> jimmy carter's making headlines out of it. >> what is that. >> gail collins, let's talk about this weekend. the president's going to be on five sunday shows, yuni vision, late night with david letterman, the home shopping network, qvc, wrestling. and there's "jon & kate plus 8." is there a possibility that the president of the united states being overexposed, gail? >> he feels that way to us because we try to watch all these things. the average american will see maybe one of -- or maybe shots here and there of what he's doing. it's really hard to actually make intellectual emotional contact with the voters. i think for most it will be fine.

>> is this a good strategy, gail? seriously. to go on every show to try and, i mean, i don't understand when it stops for him and when it's special to hear from the president. >> maybe that's another new thing we're learning. we're learning to live with so many new things in this age. that could be one of them that you're going to have a president who is communicating 24/7 rather than doing something else 24/7. >> gail, gail. gail, it is not working and you know, we had chuck todd tell us what the president may say. look, this is not about race and all the rest of the thing. what's the headline going to be monday? carter -- i mean obama rebukes carter. how good a headline is that when you really want to focus on health care. i think he's gotten himself in too many fights here, joe. >> why are you thinking -- it's not president obama's fault that jimmy carter is making speeches. if you know jimmy carter, you do, not a guy you can call up

and say please, jimmy, do something else. >> what is he going to say? >> gail, we got to go. let me ask you quickly. i'm going to ask you to be honest with us. how excited are you to have peter schiff and chris dodd to write about over the next year? >> you know, for me it's got to be the -- as a journalist, a guy who's going to report this. >> get to connecticut. >> gail collins, thanks for being with us. and make sure you read gail's op-ed in "the new york times" about max baucus, student loans, and hair balls. >> up next from seattle, what if anything did we learn today? you're watching "morning joe," brewed by starbucks.

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welcome back to seattle. fish are starting to be tossed around at the market. yeah. and by the way, you got to